JonBenet New Discussion

[Rainsong]

[toothpick]

"Lovely theory, however, the DNA from both the panties and the pajamas matched."

That is still ambiguous.

[Rainsong]

[toothpick]

"Would you please cite the specific case wherein "the serial killer being sought for years that simply turned out to be a combination of dna left by various garment handlers?? "

I had made an error in my earlier post stating that it was "various garment handlers" as this is not acccurate.
My apologies to you, Rainsong, for making this incorrect statement

The dna comination was in fact from cross-contamination at the lab and from a lab technician who had also inadvertantly left their own dna behind as well.

I had posted an article or two on this incident here on thie forums which I believe was in Europe.

I was confusing the incident where forensic scientist Henry Lee had purchased several unopened packages of the same brand of panties that Jonbenet was wearing at the time of her murder and discovered unknown male dna on them.

[toothpick]

Here are a few articles on the German "Faceless" serial killer also, which turned out to be the dna of a worker at the cotton packing facility where the sampling swabs were manufactured.




http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ryYgdLjG62EJ:news.scotsman.com/world/
Serial-killer-sought for16.5115355.jp+european+serial+
killer+does+not+exist&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Serial killer sought for 16 years turns out to be cotton
Date: 27 March 2009
By ALLAN HALL IN BERLIN
A 16-YEAR hunt for a female serial killer in Europe has collapsed into farce, after DNA linking the suspect was traced to contaminated cotton swabs from a factory.


And...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,615608,00.html

Police Fear 'Serial Killer' Was Just DNA Contamination
A notorious German serial killer known as "the Phantom of Heilbronn" might not exist. Police believe DNA evidence which pointed to a 15-year trail of crimes across Germany was a case of contaminated cotton swabs.

She was one of Germany's most-wanted criminals. Dubbed "The Phantom of Heilbronn" and "The Woman Without a Face," she apparently committed an extraordinary series of crimes across Germany over more than 15 years, including murders, break-ins and theft. Lab tests showed her DNA at 40 different crime scenes. Investigators had to admit they were stumped.

The woman, however, probably does not exist. Investigators now fear the "evidence" was a result of using contaminated cotton swabs to collect DNA samples, the public prosecutor's office in Saarbrücken announced Wednesday.

The Federal Criminal Police Office has been investigating this hypothesis intensively since February, officials said. But police have suspected for months that the clues might point in the wrong direction -- say, toward a careless employee at a cotton swab manufacturer, rather than a serial killer.
A forensic institute in Stuttgart has now checked several hundred unused cotton swabs for contamination since April 2008, without, however, finding any evidence of rogue DNA.

Contradictory Evidence

Suspicions arose after the Phantom's DNA turned up during an investigation into the identity of a burned body, which had been found in France and which was thought to belong to an asylum seeker who disappeared in 2002. Police discovered that the missing man had had his fingerprints taken for his asylum application. They obtained DNA from the fingerprints and found -- to their surprise -- that it matched up with the Phantom's DNA.



DDP
In 2008 investigators wondered if the killer was maybe a man.
"Obviously that was impossible, as the asylum seeker was a man and the Phantom's DNA belonged to a woman," Ernst Meiners, spokesman for the Saarbrücken public prosecutor's office, told SPIEGEL ONLINE Thursday. A second check did not find the Phantom's DNA in the fingerprints. "That aroused suspicions that the materials were contaminated."

Investigators now suspect that certain batches of cotton swabs were contaminated before delivery, which could have happened during the production process or when the cotton was picked. They are currently looking into how the cotton swabs are made to see how the DNA might have snuck in.
On Wednesday the German newsmagazine Stern reported that the cotton swabs were probably contaminated, speculating that it could have been by a careless employee at the manufacturer. Although cotton swabs are sterilized before their use in investigations, human cells from skin or sweat can survive that process, according to experts quoted by Stern. The magazine said DNA samples had already been taken from female staff at a German medical supplies company to compare their profiles with that of the Phantom.

The German Union of Criminal Investigators (BDK) called for the introduction of a "DNA quality seal" that would rule out the possibility of incorrect analysis due to contamination. Manufacturers should include data about the DNA of the employees who handled the products in the packaging, BDK spokesman Bernd Carstensen told the Thursday edition of the newspaper Stuttgarter Nachrichten. That would allow their DNA to be excluded from the investigation. A similar system is already in use with fingerprint evidence to prevent police from accidentally launching a search for their colleagues.

Man, Woman or Transsexual?

The Phantom's supposed DNA had been found at 40 different crime scenes in the states of Baden-Württemberg, Rhineland-Palatinate and Saarland, as well as in Austria, since 1993. The elusive serial killer was suspected of murdering six people, including a 22-year-old female police officer in Heilbronn in April 2007. Investigators were increasingly baffled by the case. A reward of €300,000 for evidence leading to her arrest was offered, to no avail.

In a bizarre twist, police released a photo-fit picture of the suspect in 2008. However, the picture showed a man -- leading to some speculation that the killer might be transsexual.

The embarrassing revelations come just days after another case showed the limits of DNA profiling. German police were forced to release identical twins who were suspected of pulling off a spectacular jewel heist after the DNA sample found at the crime scene could not be pinned conclusively on either man, whose DNA is indistinguishable under current methods.


And...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nI0I5eig5QMJ:www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.
php/t129189.html+german+serial+killer+was+lab+technician&cd=
2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

For many years, German police have been searching for a seemingly very busy female serial killer. Traces of her DNA have been found in up to 40 crime scenes, dating back to 1993. Finally, the mysterious female has been located, with help from Austrian police.


They found the woman working at her job in a factory packing cotton swabs used to take DNA samples.

Seems that the cotton swabs are sterile and suitable for many medicinal purposes, but were never guarranteed to be totally DNA-free. The procedure to ensure that a swab has absolutely no traces of any DNA makes the product significantly more expensive. Various police forces thought they could go with the cheaper ones simply because they were sterile. Now they've found out that what seemed to be a great deal has ended up wasting thousands of hours in searching for a prolific killer who never existed.

[toothpick]

In the JBR case, the intermingled DNA found in the crotch area of the panties JBR wore was reported as being "degraded."
That hinders any definitive conclusion.



DNA Expert Barry Scheck's View:
Attorney Barry Scheck has asserted "we don't know whether that's saliva or what, whether that's skin cells, you know, there was -- it could be DNA from the original manufacturer of the underwear."

My Questions:

Even if the dna recovered from the panties (and allegedly the waist area of the long-johns) match...
Then where did the unknown male dna found under, at least two of JBR's fingernails, come from?
And why was there no match to this dna with the other two samples?

No blood evidence was recovered from any other source but Jonbenet, this includes from under her fingernails.


And why wouldn't Patsy Ramsey's dna also be found since she often helps Jonbenet dress and handles her clothing/undergarments on a regular basis?

And why was this particular pair the "odd pair" out of a good number of other panties worn by JBR which were subsequently collected by investigators after her murder?

It's been suggested that the killer may have brought this extra-large pair for use in his fantasies since there is no logical reason for their being there.

That would mean he had to know her brand of underwear.

Why wouldn't he know her size of underwear as well, at least a size closer to her own?

I believe that the package could have just as easily have contained the "odd pair" and quality control simply missed it during the packaging process.
That is in fact a logical assumption./conclusion to come to.
Much better than the perp bringing his own pair.


The Bloomies underwear come in a package of seven, one for each day of the week.
The package that was opened to put on JonBenet was not recovered in the house, but was surrendered to police five years after the crime.
It had been in the Ramsey’s possession all that time, supposedly in a box.

And everyone wants to "blindly" believe that the Ramsey's had been cooperating with investigators to find their child's killer as they've often publically professed?

[toothpick]

Four fibers on the duct tape have been linked to the red and black jacket that Patsy wore the night before.
When Patsy greeted officers at 6 a.m. she was wearing the same jacket she had just worn to the Christmas party.
Patsy maintains that she dressed that morning prior to finding out that JonBenet was missing.


This was hours prior to Jonbenet having been discovered dead in the basement by John Ramsey.

How did those particular fibers come to be on the adhesive side of the duct tape?

John Ramsey had removed the duct tape covering his daughter's mouth and left it in the basement room.

Why was his fingerprints also not found on the tape?

Why did Fleet White pickup a piece of broken glass on the floor inside the train room and replace it on the window sill and not tell police or John Ramsey about this?
Though he did tell John when they both went to the basement together, when Jonbenet was found.

Why did John Ramsey not tell the police of the broken basement window before or after he went to the basement alone and then accompanied by Fleet White when he in fact stated himself that he went there both times to look for a possible entry point for the kidnapper?

He also closed and latched the broken window where an intruder could have "in theory" gained entry into the home.

And what about the suitcase and scuff mark on the same wall under this broken window?
No such mention to police upstairs either even though to most of us intelligent people here, this is very suspect if not a disturbing observation!!
(Burglary 101 )

I have a great number of questions..
And without cooperation and honesty from those involved...
These questions will never be answered to my satisfaction.

These people's behaviors and responses are not natural nor what I would expect to be normal under these particular circumstances regardless as to how people are known to respond differently.

Behavioral analysis is what it's commonly known as, and I consider myself very good at this kind of thing:wink:

[toothpick]

"Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes"

"Located just below the right ear at the right angle of the mandible, 1.5 inches below the right external auditory canal is a 3/8 x 1/4 inch area of rust colored abrasion."

Held by her killer's hands while faceup.

She was garroted from behind and while face-down.

[Rainsong]

[toothpick]

I've been quite busy the last few days while in Boulder.
I've spoken to a man who was on the work crew at the house just prior to Jonbenet's murder.
(In relation to the Hi-Tec shoeprint in the basement)

I've spent a few hours at the home reviewing the structural characteristics in detail and taking measurements for the SMART Geospatial Analysis program.

I believe the most recent detective assigned to the case was Det. Kurt Foster.

[Rainsong]

[toothpick]

"Read the books. All of them."

So far I have read Detective Steve Thomas' book, John & Patsy Ramsey's (The Death of Innocence), Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller, Death of a Little Princess by Carlton Smith, JonBenet-The Police Files (National Enquirer)

Why should I read books when I have contacts who have actually been involved in this investigation on some level or the other and I have access to reports that no one here has had access to?
This is how I was able to locate the men involved in the construction endeavors at the residence.

I'm not attempting to prove Patsy Ramsey was the responsible party even though that's my conclusion based on the evidence I have seen thus far...
But I'm here in Boulder to look at ALL the available evidence that can be disclosed to me without affecting the integrity of the investigation.

I'm here to look into the possibility that the intruder theory is viable.
And if so I will accept this as a viable scenario.
But at this point, only a week here, I have not seen enough to have me accept such as being viable.
Time may tell.

Just because I have come to certain conclusions already concerning who appears the likely candidate for committing this crime, I also realize that my conclusions were based on incomplete, and at times, inaccurate information.
That's why I had decided to come to Boulder and investigate this situation for myself.
I consider myself quite good in the area of crime scene analysis/crime scene interpretation/reconstruction as well as criminal behavior analysis.

Yet, all this means nothing without accurate and detailed information.
That is what I am now pursuing.


You had written; "Perhaps you should do some more research on this topic since it appears there are huge gaps in your knowledge base on the murder of JonBenet."

With all due respect for you, Rainsong, as I absolutely appreciate your views, knowledge and contributions here on the forum, I may not have all the facts straight, that is for certain.
I, of course, realize this.
But I don't believe anyone, including you, have all the facts straight.
I know that my knowledge base is pretty fair even when considering all the inaccuracies and outright fallacious statements that have been made concerning this case, making it quite difficult for most anyone to get a good perspective.

Would you like to come to Boulder and assist me or would you rather sit back at home and ridicule me for my lack of real knowledge as you seem to be doing?
Or would you like to give me some positive direction?

Chris

[toothpick]

Apparently some individual or possibly several, felt it necessary to remove (steal) a number of books pertaining to the Jonbenet Ramsey murder from the Boulder Public Library's Main Branch.

These were: The Death of Innocence-John and Patsy Ramsey
(2 copies missing)
Last checked-in on 11-23-01 and on 05-01-05

JonBenet, Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation-Steve Thomas
(2 copies missing)
Last checked-in on 10-12-05 and on 08-31-06

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town-Lawarence Schiller
(1 copy missing)
Last checked-in on 02-08-04

I haven't attempted to verify if any other books on this topic have been reported missing..

But you'd certainly have to intentionally remove the magnetic tape strips between the pages and in the binders in order not to sound the alarm.

(Boulder Public Library told me that cannot yet afford the RFID tags)

A true crime fan wanting these books for their collection?
Or was there another reason behind this effort such as attempting to prevent a number of the local citizens from reading about the situation from various perspectives?

Shades of Watergate

What a shame....

[Rainsong]

[quote="toothpick"]

[toothpick]

OK.. I now understand where you would have thought that my knowledge of the case was lacking in certain areas..
The remark I made about the oversize underwear..

I was already aware of the fact that Patsy Ramsey had later told investigatrs that she had bought TWO pair and one was for her, I believe, 12 year old niece?

Yet in the very beginning, she told investigators that she had not recognized this larger pair.

I never believed her second account of having purchased two pair.
This is why I had not included it in my statements.

Maybe I should have included that I didn't particularly believe that story.

My apologies also to you if I was out of line in my response, but yes, I in fact had taken it personal.

My apologies.


I have never heard of a partial print having been discovered on Jonbenet's body, but I do know from my local contact that investigators had removed cigarette butts from the scene for dna analysis.


I do have to ask you what you think of the Ramsey's not having released the clothing they wore the night they put her to bed to police until a year later.
And why it took John Ramsey seven months to tell police about the broken window??